r/apolloapp Apollo Developer May 31 '23

📣 Had a call with Reddit to discuss pricing. Bad news for third-party apps, their announced pricing is close to Twitter's pricing, and Apollo would have to pay Reddit $20 million per year to keep running as-is. Announcement 📣

Hey all,

I'll cut to the chase: 50 million requests costs $12,000, a figure far more than I ever could have imagined.

Apollo made 7 billion requests last month, which would put it at about 1.7 million dollars per month, or 20 million US dollars per year. Even if I only kept subscription users, the average Apollo user uses 344 requests per day, which would cost $2.50 per month, which is over double what the subscription currently costs, so I'd be in the red every month.

I'm deeply disappointed in this price. Reddit iterated that the price would be A) reasonable and based in reality, and B) they would not operate like Twitter. Twitter's pricing was publicly ridiculed for its obscene price of $42,000 for 50 million tweets. Reddit's is still $12,000. For reference, I pay Imgur (a site similar to Reddit in user base and media) $166 for the same 50 million API calls.

As for the pricing, despite claims that it would be based in reality, it seems anything but. Less than 2 years ago they said they crossed $100M in quarterly revenue for the first time ever, if we assume despite the economic downturn that they've managed to do that every single quarter now, and for your best quarter, you've doubled it to $200M. Let's also be generous and go far, far above industry estimates and say you made another $50M in Reddit Premium subscriptions. That's $550M in revenue per year, let's say an even $600M. In 2019, they said they hit 430 million monthly active users, and to also be generous, let's say they haven't added a single active user since then (if we do revenue-per-user calculations, the more users, the less revenue each user would contribute). So at generous estimates of $600M and 430M monthly active users, that's $1.40 per user per year, or $0.12 monthly. These own numbers they've given are also seemingly inline with industry estimates as well.

For Apollo, the average user uses 344 requests daily, or 10.6K monthly. With the proposed API pricing, the average user in Apollo would cost $2.50, which is is 20x higher than a generous estimate of what each users brings Reddit in revenue. The average subscription user currently uses 473 requests, which would cost $3.51, or 29x higher.

While Reddit has been communicative and civil throughout this process with half a dozen phone calls back and forth that I thought went really well, I don't see how this pricing is anything based in reality or remotely reasonable. I hope it goes without saying that I don't have that kind of money or would even know how to charge it to a credit card.

This is going to require some thinking. I asked Reddit if they were flexible on this pricing or not, and they stated that it's their understanding that no, this will be the pricing, and I'm free to post the details of the call if I wish.

- Christian

(For the uninitiated wondering "what the heck is an API anyway and why is this so important?" it's just a fancy term for a way to access a site's information ("Application Programming Interface"). As an analogy, think of Reddit having a bouncer, and since day one that bouncer has been friendly, where if you ask "Hey, can you list out the comments for me for post X?" the bouncer would happily respond with what you requested, provided you didn't ask so often that it was silly. That's the Reddit API: I ask Reddit/the bouncer for some data, and it provides it so I can display it in my app for users. The proposed changes mean the bouncer will still exist, but now ask an exorbitant amount per question.)

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u/FriedEngineer May 31 '23 edited Jun 02 '23

Reddit is crazy to think this pricing is reasonable. Appreciate your transparency as always!

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u/jimbo831 May 31 '23

They know it’s not reasonable. They want to kill third-party apps, and this pricing is designed with that goal in mind.

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u/iindigo May 31 '23

Yep. They don’t want to have to compete with community apps that are vastly better built and optimized for what users actually want. They want to give you no choice but to use their optimized-for-engagement-and-ad-impressions first party site/app.

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u/Nico777 May 31 '23

Not just better built and optimized, but without their ads. That's all they're aiming for.

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u/Beautiful-Musk-Ox May 31 '23

Not just ads but tracking too, reddit wants you to use their app so they can steal as much if your data as possible

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u/AcademicF May 31 '23 edited Jun 01 '23

They’re trying to overvalue their services before going public. Execs want to cash out and move to a tropical island. It’s also why they’re considering banning porn.

Everything on the internet is getting sanitized and homogenized for corporate profits. Greed always kills openness and creativity. And Reddit was founded on, and has been built by, user input and creativity.

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u/Estul May 31 '23

It’s been a good run folks

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u/PlenitudeOpulence May 31 '23

This is devastating news as a long time Redditor and Apollo user.

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u/staile May 31 '23

Their pricing is outlandish. If they don’t compromise or another solution isn’t found, well I certainly won’t be an active Reddit user any longer as I use Apollo almost exclusively.

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u/BigGucciThanos May 31 '23

Yeah. Reddits main function is comments and reading a thread on the official app is abysmal. I’d probably drop the platform all together

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u/staile May 31 '23

Yep it’s nothing that can’t be recreated elsewhere. I think there’s going to continue to be more interest in decentralized platforms anyhow.

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u/JohnnyFiama May 31 '23

Christian - First and foremost I would like to acknowledge the pain that you are likely feeling right now.

People can say what they want about building a business atop public APIs, but it is clear you had developed a solid working relationship with the company behind it, and so had every reason to believe these shenanigans would not occur.

I truly hope you find someway in which to salvage the Apollo product, and that it remains viable for you in the longterm. All my best!

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u/scullys_alien_baby May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

as much as this makes me mad at reddit, I'm also really feeling for Christian. Dude has put a lot of his time making a career out of apollo which helped build up reddit and now he's looking down the barrel of that career disappearing.

He seems clever and talented so here's hoping he can figure out a good financial move from here. Depending how it shakes out, I wouldn't blame him for shuttering Apollo and finding a job doing something else

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

This is this mans likelihood and also his ‘big project’ that he’s put his heart and soul into. It’s really not fair to him being as he actually brings people TO the platform BECAUSE OF his app. Read this whole post, most people here are ready to leave if 3rd party apps can’t survive, and they’re essentially trying to push this man out not realizing how many people are here BC OF him and his work to make this shithole site easier to use.

I went onto Reddit from my PC the other day after years of being on Apollo and holy shit if it isn’t the most clunky and absurdly set up site I’ve come across in a long time. It feel so outdated (yes even on new Reddit) and I found all the shit all over the screen in every direction and available pixel so distracting that the site is basically useless to me. I can only imagine how terrible their app is… which I might add was a 3rd party app at one time that Reddit bought and then ran into the ground.

I’d be willing to pay to use Apollo monthly but I shouldn’t have to. I have already invested a bunch of money in the app by buying ultra and pro and whatever else it’s got, along with sending Christian coffees when I can. I will not be using the Reddit app or site tho. Now or ever. So Reddit should really rethink how they are treating u/iamthatis after all he’s done to revive this dump of a place.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/TACkleBr May 31 '23

Reddit is jealous that you made a better app. Shame on the greed.

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u/PutridUniversity May 31 '23

It’s obvious they’re trying to get rid of external apps like Apollo.

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u/pp21 May 31 '23

Yeah I mean your IPO is going to look better if your userbase is overwhelmingly using your product's app to interact with it. Having your userbase scattered among a bunch of 3rd party apps isn't what investors are going to want. Sucks because Apollo is incredible, but the writing has been on the wall since the IPO rumors began. This place will get the full corporate sanitization treatment to ensure the biggest ROI. 3rd party apps will be squeezed out with stupid pricing like this

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u/hoovadoova May 31 '23

There was a good app before and the developer got hired by reddit which was a win-win for him. His app used to be the golden standard before. Maybe Christian will go to the other side like the other dev did?

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u/theArtOfProgramming May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

Reddit bought alien blue iirc and seemingly tossed all the source code and came out with whatever their current app is

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u/hoovadoova May 31 '23

Alien Blue - yes, loved it so much and it had even a terrific iPad app!

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u/SirAdrian0000 May 31 '23

I recall they gave all the alien blue used like 3 years of Reddit premium when they shut it down.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

It was 4 years, I had it

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u/Savesomeposts May 31 '23

Yeah and when it ran out and I saw ads again I bailed so fucking fast, which is when I found Apollo.

I won’t be staying if it happens again.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

Exact same scenario for me

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u/JulioChavezReuters May 31 '23

Hi Christian, I work for Reuters. I’ve passed this link on to some of our tech and social media reporters

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u/iamthatis Apollo Developer May 31 '23

Oh hey! Sorry for the delayed response, my fingers hurt from typing today, and I've missed replies from some cool folks. My email is me at christianselig.com if you folks or anyone else want to talk.

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u/captyossarian1991 May 31 '23

Hoping they come to a reasonable price Christian, I’ve been using your app for years now, it’s fantastic.

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u/ChimRichaldsOBGYN May 31 '23

To that point u/iamthatis what would be a reasonable price to consider keeping things goin?

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u/DeliriumTrigger May 31 '23

OP says $0.12/month is a generous assumption of what each user brings in for Reddit. I would argue Reddit shouldn't profit more from a third-party app than they would just using their site, but even so, they could charge API double that and still keep it reasonable for developers.

This is simply Reddit killing third-party apps.

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u/SarahAGilbert May 31 '23

Hi Christian, I'm so sorry to hear this. Colleagues and I at the Coalition for Independent Technology Research have been organizing an open letter to Steve Huffman in response to uncertainty around the Reddit API. We targeted the campaign towards mods and researchers (construed broadly) rather than devs specifically, but what we've learned through our fact-finding survey is that mods rely on third party apps (and mentioned yours specifically by name multiple times) as a vital tool in keeping their communities safe from things like spam and other inauthentic behaviour (like Russian trolls) and community members safe from things like hate and harassment.

I know a lot of users prefer your app to Reddit's official app, but this is going to impact people who have never even heard of your app but participate in the communities of mods who rely on it. The loss of your, and other apps with more robust moderation support, is going to result in negative downstream effects on the site, unfortunately.

And on a personal note, I'm so sorry you're no longer able to maintain a project you've worked so hard on—this must be so hard (although I hope the support from the community helps in the moment).

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u/JulioChavezReuters May 31 '23

Thanks! I’ll pass this on

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u/123bpd May 31 '23

This is the way. Spread this news far & wide. It’d be a PR shame if they were publicly ridiculed for this decision, wouldn’t it?

Either way, time to GDPR request my archive and head out. Been meaning to, anyhow

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u/OrgeGeorwell May 31 '23

It’s democratic of us to publicly ridicule the mismanagement of our public discourse.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/sn34kypete May 31 '23

Pao was a scapegoat CEO. Another former reddit CEO even said as much. Her job was to do the ugly shit, take a check, then bounce.

https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/former-reddit-ceo-says-ellen-pao-served-as-a-scapegoat/

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23 edited Jun 30 '23

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/ExcitingishUsername May 31 '23

I know it's probably not something media will care much about, but Reddit is also ripping away a lot of tools and functions necessary to moderate adult content on Reddit, which will have huge implications for our ability to keep those spaces moderated, safe, and legal. I think there's a story there too, but I don't know if anyone will care to tell it.

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u/austingriffis May 31 '23

I guess I’ll start reading books, or maybe spend more time with my kids.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

I had the same thought, but why punish my teenager because reddit’s pricing is insane? 😀

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u/MacZealot May 31 '23

Reddit deciding to Digg their own grave.

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u/bluedemon May 31 '23

Seriously. I left digg due to their changes. I’ll leave reddit too if that happens.

I think subreddits should make a sticky informing users about this API bs.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

Well, Reddit was fun while it lasted. I’m gone the day this goes into effect, I guess.

Christian, thanks for all of the work you’ve continually put into making Apollo such an amazing experience, and I’m sorry to see this happen. It’s utterly unreasonable, and they know it. If they’re going to ban 3rd party apps in practice (as this very clearly is designed to accomplish), they should have the balls to just do it rather than pull this nonsense.

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u/lober May 31 '23

I am gone also the day this happens. Many thanks to Christian as well.

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u/Temporarily__Alone May 31 '23

Alright boys, where we goin next?

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u/yokingato May 31 '23

Reddit was fun

Heh.

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u/PancakeMaster24 May 31 '23

I’m so sorry u/iamthatis.

As a beta tester since your first post on r/apple i have loved this app (even in the rebuild period right before release all those years ago). The ios based design, the amazing features, and everything else has been outstanding. I know you’ve spent so much time, money, and effort coding this app and it’s honestly the best app I’ve ever used truly.

No matter what happens or what the future holds (new app or dramatic changes) I think I speak for all beta testers that we’ll support you always.

Godspeed mate 🫡

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u/iamthatis Apollo Developer May 31 '23

Thanks for being with me so long :) That post feels both ages ago and just like yesterday

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u/LordTopley May 31 '23

Bye Bye Reddit then.

Without third party apps, I'll abandon Reddit like I abandoned Twitter.

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u/Vestalmin May 31 '23

You don’t want a Tiktok style video player that doesn’t work?

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u/LordTopley May 31 '23

Nah, I'd rather grate my nipples off with a hot cheese grater than use vanilla Reddit.

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u/Yoncen May 31 '23

Thank you for this delightful visual.

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u/Mathesar May 31 '23

Likewise. What a shame. I will not use the official Reddit app, it sucks ass. I will not use reddits new website, it sucks even more ass. Reddit, you cannot force an ass-sucking interface on me. I’d rather spend time somewhere else.

I suppose I’ll get my fix of niche communities through old.reddit, but far less frequently. It’s been fun fellas

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u/KickupKirby May 31 '23

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if old.reddit is killed in all of this mess.

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u/mandalore237 May 31 '23

Yea the official reddit app is fucking garbage. I prefer Reddit is Fun to apollo but regardless

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u/LordTopley May 31 '23

I stopped using Apollo a few months back and moved to ReddPlanet.

Official app is horrid.

Why Reddit can't just be reasonable. If they want the ad revenue or Reddit Premium money, then force it into the API then.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

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u/Echohawkdown May 31 '23

I would settle for opt-in notifs (as opposed to opt-out notifs).

The dark patterns are strong in the official app and they can fuck off.

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u/fatboychummy May 31 '23

This pissed me off so much with the official app. Every sub subbed to would enable notifications by default. Disable them? Every 3 posts you look at on the sub will pop up "Hey, turn on notifications for this sub!"

Fuck the official app, it's terrible.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

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u/JDgoesmarching May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

I was part of that migration, but I think this underestimates the amount of consolidation the internet has experienced since then and the power of the network effects for being the dominant player in this domain for over a decade.

Realistically, there aren’t analogues to Reddit the way there were for Digg. While Digg looms large in our minds, they were doing ~30m monthly active users at their peak while Reddit currently pulls in around half a billion.

Especially with younger generations moving heavily to video, I don’t think we’re going to see a primarily text/image forum platform that challenges Reddit in the near future.

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u/catsupatree May 31 '23

Problem for Reddit is, what network do I have on here? I like Twitter, Instagram, et. all because of the people I follow, whether friends or celebrities.

Despite Reddit’s efforts, I don’t do that here. If I deleted my account, nobody would ask where I went, I wouldn’t miss anyone specifically. Sure, I wouldn’t be able to mindlessly scroll, but that’s about it.

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u/Technojerk36 May 31 '23

It's more about the communities and knowledge that have centralized onto reddit. Anytime I search for anything on the web I always add reddit to the end of the search. I know I'll find good discussion and reviews from real people about whatever I'm searching for. It could be about a product category, a specific product or even just something about a mechanic in a video game. I don't see how another website can replace reddit at this point.

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u/mbr4life1 May 31 '23

I do the same but part of that is search engines are giving worse results in the aim of upping revenue. Using reddit at least clears through some of the useless results.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

nobody would ask where I went

Cmon now, all those porn bot accounts that follow us will be super sad that we left.

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u/gasbrake May 31 '23

The fact I had to scroll this far down to see first mention of Digg reflects just how complete the destruction of Digg was. The parallels are uncanny.

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u/IronRectangle May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

This is absurd pricing. There’s no way I or many others will continue to post, comment, or moderate anywhere near our current levels without good apps like Apollo. I really hope they take feedback from the pricing announcement and drastically re-think things.

That being said, I’m also personally okay with you raising subscription prices if needed in the future. I use the hell out of this app.

Edit, to be clear: forcing devs to increase their subscription prices only so that a bucket of money can be passed on to Reddit for API access is not okay. I understand that price increases need to happen sometimes, even for things like the cost of APIs or other resources, but this is extremely ham-fisted by Reddit.

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u/Galaxyman0917 May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

Yeah, I ain’t using the native app, no matter what.

Edit: please don’t give this comment awards, donate the money to a charity or something.

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u/RagnaNic May 31 '23

It's nigh on unusable.

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u/KimJongFunk May 31 '23

I have mild vision problems and it is impossible for me to use the app because of the font sizing and display. This is the end of Reddit for me after all these years.

It’s been a pleasure shitposting with you all. [violin plays]

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u/nsfw_deadwarlock May 31 '23

Same. Once Apollo is gone, Reddit is gone for me too.

It was a nice decade.

A thing isn’t beautiful because it lasts.

But last it will, going on to gorge itself greedily like the river spirit.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/cobalt5blue May 31 '23

I wonder if they are intentionally setting it so high, predicting the negative reaction and being the good guys when they "drop" the prices to what wanted all along.

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u/maxfortitude May 31 '23

I’m only ever gonna use Apollo, so if it’s not manageable for Christian, and Apollo goes under; bye Reddit.

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u/senseibull May 31 '23

Christian should start a site called Apollo that is a direct competitor to reddit and just switch the back end API calls to his own server.

He has numbers already, we all use the app, the foundation is there and we can scrape the web for him and start generating content on there.

Christian and co could continue to make the same amount of money more or less with minor adjustments and also potentially bring in ad revenue

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u/BagOnuts May 31 '23

Honestly, not a bad idea.

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u/anon377362 May 31 '23

I initially laughed at your comment because of how naive it seemed with regards to the work that would be involved but on second thought I think Christian could pull it off. The Reddit experience is so bad without Apollo or Slide that I’d happily switch over if he created a new site.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/Time-Marionberry7365 May 31 '23

Hell yeah, I’d definitely donate my time to make a competitor

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u/colei_canis May 31 '23

Reddit was open source at one point but at some point in the intervening corporate enshittification it was closed. The repos are still up though, I wonder if it would be quicker to adapt Apollo to an older version of the actual Reddit API than writing a whole new implementation of Reddit's backend from scratch?

Or maybe going from scratch is a better idea, there's way better frameworks for writing a backend than there were back when Reddit moved to Python (it was written in LISP originally proving once again that old Reddit was infinitely cooler).

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u/onlysaysnobodycares May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

Bye bye, Reddit. Let me know where you guys are moving to next!

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/graphicsnerdo May 31 '23 edited Jun 07 '23

Same. Going on 15 years now with Reddit (I was a Digg refugee). Sad to see them going this way, but the only constant is change. I just wish there was a similar site out there that could resurrect Old.Reddit and just make that the default for itself and move on from there.

*edit: Looks like Lemmy is the answer for now. It feels just like old Reddit!

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u/LetItHappenAlready May 31 '23

Fifteen years here too. A couple accounts later. Maybe this will finally get me to kick this addiction.

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u/tomjen May 31 '23

At this point I only bring out this account to show that it exists, but I have been on reddit since there were 4 subreddits.

The only reason I am here anymore (on alts because the internet is not what it was the summer day in my parents house 16 years ago when I signed up for reddit, hence no comments on this account), is Apollo and old.reddit.com without them I am going to actually have to get a hobby.

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u/HotDogOfNotreDame May 31 '23

Apollo makes reddit good. Without Apollo, I'll find somewhere else to spend my time.

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u/sender_mage May 31 '23

100%.

The “official” Reddit app is pure trash as a UX experience and essentially just FaceBook lite.

There were some smaller subs I’ll miss seeing content in but I’m not going to force myself to deal with that BS when the third party apps choose to back off that unrealistic evaluation.

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u/katiecharm May 31 '23

And considering how bland and sanitized they will continue to make things leading up to their IPO, I am betting the site just continues to get worse.

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u/sender_mage May 31 '23

I hope people just accept this site isn’t what it was back in 2013 ten years ago and a new, more old school forum site rises to the occasion. The newer form of content sites focusing on super short attention and constant stimulation are so bland; I miss the internet as more of a place for discussion and discovery. Now it’s all just distractions and shorter-form / self entertainment.

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u/Demi_95 May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

This is the end for Apollo. Reddit is going in full greed mode which is unsurprising to say the least. Their pricing was designed to kill 3rd party apps.

I feel sorry for Christian but I’ll follow him for whatever his next endeavor will be.

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u/MeBeEric May 31 '23

Let’s not forget they acquired and killed Alien Blue to get their shitty in-house app launched

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u/_J0nSn0w May 31 '23

Wait that’s what happened to alien blue. What the fuck. It just stopped working for me one day and I found Apollo right after

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u/Xanderoga May 31 '23 edited Jun 30 '23

Fuck spez

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u/il1k3c3r34l May 31 '23

I’ve been here for ten years and can confidently say the only reason I’m still using Reddit is because the Apollo app is so good. I use my phone to browse here 99.9% of the time, and I’m not switching to Reddit’s terrible app. So…I guess that means I’ll be using Reddit 99.9% less. It’s only gone downhill in the years I’ve been here anyway, I’ll cut it out of my life the same way I cut out Facebook and Twitter.

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u/Xanderoga May 31 '23

You’re right — reddit has been complete ass for years now.

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u/TheNimbleBanana May 31 '23

Niche subreddits are still real good but most of the big ones that hit the front page are pretty bleh. But then again this has been true for over a decade.

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u/MyMurderOfCrows May 31 '23

Reddit’s horrible app is the whole reason I found and quickly adopted Apollo. It is Apollo or nothing and if this is the hill Reddit wants to die on, fuck ‘em!

Not only is the official app set up with the worse UI humanly possible, it was buggy as hell for me back when I did use it >.>

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/all2neat May 31 '23

Same. It looks like I’m about to be social media free, which is probably a good thing.

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u/ScuttleCrab729 May 31 '23

Im just sad I’ll miss some of the communities.

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u/RestoreFear May 31 '23

No way they keep supporting old.reddit.com

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/Ltrly_Htlr May 31 '23

Same. Exactly the same. This move will alienate many long term Reddit users.

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u/boozeBeforeBoobs May 31 '23

Been on reddit since the beginning with various accounts over the years. If old.reddit.com dies, I will be gone. Deep links force me to the current site sometimes and it is painfully bad.

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u/HVDynamo May 31 '23

Yup, if old Reddit and Apollo go away I’m done. I can’t stand the default app or new website. It’s all hot garbage.

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u/5tyhnmik May 31 '23

Reddit is going in full greed mode which is unsurprising to say the least.

You can say that again. They've even perma-banned people just for reporting bots because the bots are more valuable towards their upcoming IPO.

It would be a shame if they got class-action sued pursuant to the fact that bans deny access to spending karma on awards which can also be purchased with real money, therefore bans have a direct monetary impact.

I'm too lazy to participate but will be very entertaining to watch when it inevitably happens.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/kayk1 May 31 '23

They are never too big to fail

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u/Gizoogle May 31 '23

If 3rd party apps are priced out of existence just because Reddit is trying to funnel users into its own app, I'm done with Reddit. Simple as.

Content will go to absolute shit anyways if you evaporate that many users, so no loss.

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u/TACkleBr May 31 '23

I’m using this app for privacy reasons. Reddit is full of telemetry.

I use troddit.com on the web to post. I have my own self hosted libreddit if I’m just lurking.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23 edited Jun 30 '23

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u/robbiet480 May 31 '23

What the fuck

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u/NCSUGrad2012 May 31 '23

Reddit is greedy assholes. Nothing new there

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

The only reason I even bother using Reddit is because if Apollo.

So…

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/Mqxi May 31 '23

Might as well take the effort you've put in and build your own platform utilizing most of what Apollo already offers. Though, I'm sure Apollo is entirely built around Reddit, and it's API, so it would basically need to be rewritten to go without. Sucks that Reddit is eliminating third party applications without saying it...

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u/ElectronGuru May 31 '23 edited Jun 01 '23

Focus here Christian,

The ballgame in web/apps is eyeballs. Google has eyeballs, Facebook has eyeballs, Reddit has eyeballs. And a significant % of Reddit’s eyeballs are controlled by Apollo.

You get to influence what those people (us) do. Push out an update announcing a new Apollo specific platform requiring new registration and see how many choose you vs switching to reddit’s own app. I bet the number is high enough to more than justify making a new back end to support it.

Give us the choice between their platform and their app and your platform with your app. Many will choose to dump reddit and follow you. You would also control membership and gain unlimited flexibility for backend features, making your experience the one to beat!

note1: make a family subscription pack supporting multiple IDs under a single account (ala Apple ID) and we’ll sign up tomorrow!

note2: many people would directly support such a venture, including investors and employees. i would pull up my own sleeves to help, just ask

note3: they probably know they are vulnerable to this and are deliberately pricing the api in order to kick you off, so they can get back control of our eyes with their app. It’s supposed to be unreasonably expensive.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

This would be awesome. Investors who have invested in reddit can hedge their bets by also investing in Apollo.

Hell, imgur was started in the comments section of a reddit post whenever someone said they wish they had somewhere to host pictures since it wasn't allowed on reddit. Now look how massive imgur has become.

Apollo doesn't just have an established userbase, Apollo has a dedicated userbase. If there was a reddit alternative that had even 1/50th of the content that reddit has then I'd make the switch.

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u/JShelbyJ May 31 '23

Yesssss

Reddit was supposed to be open source. Well open source that shit then. Let people host their own Reddits and let users access them through Apollo.

Apollo users who want to access Reddit.com can buy an upgraded version to cover the costs. Everyone else can use community operated versions of Reddit.

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u/Piemeson May 31 '23

Just chiming in to say, if the pricing change goes through, I’ll be leaving the platform as well.

It was plenty easy with Twitter, and nothing of value was lost.

I’ve lost all patience for tech platforms using one strategy to make it big then “pivot” and screw over the people who got them there.

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u/bodnast May 31 '23

The moment tweetdeck stopped working, I was done with Twitter. And it’ll be the same with me for Apollo and Reddit. I’ve been on this dumb website for over 12 years and it’s been frustrating seeing how things are going

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/DurdenVsDarkoVsDevon May 31 '23

I'd take a bet that Old Reddit is dead in 12 months.

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u/UncleArthur May 31 '23

If it is, I'm out of here too.

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u/fighterpilot248 May 31 '23

old.reddit + RES extension = bliss

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u/topredditbot May 31 '23

Hey /u/iamthatis,

This is now the top post on reddit. It will be recorded at /r/topofreddit with all the other top posts.

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u/reaper527 May 31 '23

meanwhile the reddit update about where the api change stands is the bottom of reddit, sitting at 0 points (11% upvoted).

someone should make a /r/bottomofreddit bot before the api gets shut off and everyone leaves.

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u/jimbo831 May 31 '23

I guess the end of my time on Reddit approaches. I’m not switching to their much worse app.

It has been an honor shitposting with you all.

Where are we moving to?

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u/bawpcwpn May 31 '23

This is really shit Christian. Can only hope they come around to a new ideal. For what it’s worth however, if it cost $2.50/$3 a month to use Apollo, would probably gladly pay it to have a great reddit experience and support someone worthwhile.

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u/ineedlesssleep May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

It seems like you would have to pay 5 per month to make it sustainable for Christian. How do people feel about that number? This is so shitty from reddit's side.

Edit: You gotta love that people want to pay so much for a third party app, but not for the platform itself. Reddit is really missing out here.

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u/bawpcwpn May 31 '23

Ahh didn’t realise that. Certainly in my realm but understand it’s a tough sell for many. Really makes you question why Reddit are trying a Twitter when you can see how well that’s going

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u/mementori May 31 '23

IPO incoming, can’t have your user base subverting ads like that and leaving money on the table. I disagree with the method but that’s my understanding of their strategy here.

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u/doctor_who_17 May 31 '23

Greed is short sighted

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/sunbeam60 May 31 '23 edited Jun 02 '23

This isn’t pricing to what a Reddit user costs Reddit to run.

This is pricing to what they expect a Reddit user to make them, once they have forced everyone over to the official channels AND then mine our profiles to force us to watch adds on channels where we can’t escape.

This isn’t about killing external 3rd party apps per se - it’s about making sure they’ll make the same or more one way or the other.

I’ve been a Reddit user for 17 years. This will make me leave.

… and it isn’t just because reddit has great third party clients. It’s because it’s the first clear sign about what reddit wants to turn into.

… and to that I say: Fuck you reddit!

Edit: If Reddit is so desperate to monetise then enable an ad API that enables third party clients to offset their cost to you by showing your ads. I get you’re a business, Reddit, but you don’t also have to be assholes.

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u/SplashyMcPants May 31 '23

Yeah this is a “go away, Christian” move. They want to kill your app.

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u/thefx37 May 31 '23

Reddit is just mad that they can’t make a non-shitty app.

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u/reaper527 May 31 '23

Reddit is just mad that they can’t make a non-shitty app.

even when they bought a good app (alienblue) they discontinued it and replaced it with crap.

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u/SB62 May 31 '23

just like twitter did with Tweetie

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u/cyrand May 31 '23

What drives me nuts with this, and I've said it before, but I actually do subscribe to Reddit Premium. So why in the fuck do they care which app I access the api through after that? I'm already paying what they decided they need to not show me ads. But if I'm not also using Apollo then instead my solution will be to not use the site at all, or pay for it. What world are they in that is an improvement for their business?

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u/Darkencypher May 31 '23

It's so some suit can feel good about themselves while they rip apart their company

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u/Shaddix-be May 31 '23

Yeah, the least they could do is allow third party apps for premium users. It would be a no brainer for me to get premium.

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u/TheYann May 31 '23

This is absurd pricing and they know it. Seems like they really want to kill all third-party apps this way.
It was nice to use Apollo during those years, I hope it can survive this but I'm not very optimistic.

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u/throwingawaysaturday May 31 '23

/u/spez - you know how your userbase can be when riled up for a common cause. You effectively killing Apollo will be magnitudes worse than the ellen pao fiasco. Do what is right.

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u/Call_erv_duty May 31 '23

Last comment he made was 10 months ago, u/spez doesn’t give a single shit about users.

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u/Neato May 31 '23

I'm sure he just ninja-posts as other users now instead of anything attributable to the slave-wanting persona he has.

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u/NCSUGrad2012 May 31 '23

Spoiler alert, he won’t.

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u/randomguyonleddit May 31 '23

Aaron Swartz would be disappointed but what else is new.

Reddit goes public, they will short the fuck out of the stock making hundreds of millions and then Reddit just floats like a turd on its success until eventually a new platform comes along.

Best thing you can do is honestly limit your time on Reddit and slowly move towards other communities. Sure, most platforms suck and have their issues, but Reddit is a social media platform at the end of the day trying to make a profit off you so do what works best for you.

I'll still come to a few niche subreddits to view discussions, nothing much outside of that. Might even go back to 4chan.

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u/katiecharm May 31 '23

It will literally end Reddit for the majority of us. And if Apollo creates a social media website like Reddit named Apollo, it’ll have a million users in a week. And I’ll be one of them.

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u/LeMickeyMice May 31 '23

Yeah instead of paying to use Apollo for Reddit I'd gladly pay to use Apollo for Apollo if it got enough of a start up userbase

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u/cobalt5blue May 31 '23

Reddit, ironically has big Digg energy of late.

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u/rizzu26 May 31 '23

Omg. I don’t wanna see Apollo in the state of Tweetbot. But looks like there is no other way as of now.

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u/ILOVESHITTINGMYPANTS May 31 '23

Terrible news that will probably result in me not using Reddit anymore just like I dropped Twitter once Tweetbot stopped working. The official Reddit app is simply not a good experience and I won’t be using it.

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u/raygan May 31 '23

Ugh. This is insane. When Twitter pulled this shit and rug-pulled third party clients (the only way I tolerated their platform) I took the hint and left. It would be hard to replace Reddit, but I guarantee I’d use it nearly zero without Apollo.

If this is about ad revenue I’d be perfectly fine with a system where Apollo could show Reddit ads. I just don’t want to use their psychotic, bottom of the barrel native web and app interfaces.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

Yeah, when Tweetbot stopped working I stopped using Twitter. If Apollo goes so goes Reddit.

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u/maxfortitude May 31 '23

Fuck that dude, I don’t want to see any Reddit ad revenue bullshit. The beauty of Apollo Ultra was seeing the forum as it is, not with someone pushing some cheaply made crap on me with every click.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

Sorry Christian, that’s a terrible situation to be in. I can’t imagine

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23 edited Jun 09 '23

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u/harhaus May 31 '23

What is the mastodon equivalent of reddit?

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u/RoboticChicken May 31 '23

I'm not sure if Apollo falls under their definition of "large-scale applications", but if it does, maybe we could (as individual users) register for free tier access and supply our own OAuth credentials?

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u/RedditCunByRunts May 31 '23

Damn I just found this app 😭😞

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u/Aktionjackson May 31 '23

Haha that sucks. It’s been my only social media for years. I don’t even know how many

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u/icecolddrifter May 31 '23

Reddit is the only social media platform I use and Apollo is my favourite app. As a certified Reddit addict this is kinda terrifying.

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u/FLTA May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

Unlike the official app, this app is actually focused on providing a good user experience.

Edit: Example for those who haven’t used the app: How comment threads are structured. Different colored lines more clearly emphasize which comment is the child comment. There is also a visual option to have the comment threads compact like how Alien Blue was.

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u/generic230 May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

This is heartbreaking. I’m 67 and I’m so tired of the greed everywhere. Greed that damages quality and innovation. Greed that’s about sucking the teat dry and ruining the very thing Apollo helped them achieve.

Edit: misspelled teat.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/StellarForReddit May 31 '23

Thank you for keeping the community updated, Christian! This was a tough read, but not entirely unexpected. It goes without saying that this was always the plan, with the Reddit team dangling a carrot on a stick to keep us placated in the meantime.

It is very telling they are using you as a punching bag for being the bearer of bad news. They could have easily created a pricing page and announced it that way.

Weirdly amateurish but again, not surprising.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

This is terrible. Reddit is doing this to Apollo (and other clients) when their iOS app sucks and leaves users in a nowhere to go situation. I hope you do your best with the app.

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u/coolaaron88 May 31 '23

Wow this news is devastating, that is in no way feasible for ANY third party dev to keep the lights own. Reddit must have a death sentence.

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u/Darkencypher May 31 '23

Because what happened to MySpace, Tumblr, digg and shortly Twitter deeeffffinitllly won't happen to them. Nope.

Tell the future by looking at the past

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u/coolaaron88 May 31 '23

“Those that don’t learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.”

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

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u/thecw May 31 '23

Absolutely exhausted of tech companies getting big on VC money and then stabbing the people who helped make them big in the back. I really hope this + twitter is the beginning of the end for proprietary social media sites. APIs forever.

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u/MadisonDelta May 31 '23 edited Jun 01 '23

There’s no other way of saying this, this sucks.

Upside, did Reddit just give Apollo a $20m per year valuation? /s

If you haven’t already, get a transactional lawyer for negotiations.

Edit: I know that’s not how valuations work

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u/Shaddix-be May 31 '23 edited Jun 01 '23

And that's 20m YRR. Usually companies sell for 3-5 times the YRR.

I'de try to sell them Apollo for 30m and telling them they are getting a great deal.

Edit: for those not sure, this comment is a joke.

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u/messem10 May 31 '23

Sell for 40-50 million and ride off into the sunset.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

Honestly as much as it’d suck, Christian would come out a king for all the hard work he’s put in throughout the years. If Apollo is going away, he might as well get something out of it.

I still won’t use Reddit without 3rd party apps like Alien Blue and Apollo, just like I gave up Twitter when Twitterific and TweetBot went away.

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u/bodnast May 31 '23

When the bag presents itself, you gotta take it

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u/If-You-Cant-Hang May 31 '23

Unless you’re Linus apparently. And turn down 9 figures…

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u/iamthatis Apollo Developer May 31 '23

Wow, I didn't think of it like that

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u/Scioso May 31 '23

They’re just trying to destroy Apollo.

Your app doesn’t have ads or tracking, so you’re a barrier to their monetization.

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u/kryptomicron May 31 '23

Upside, did Reddit just give Apollo a $20m per year valuation?

No, Christian just calculated one cost of operating Apollo. Businesses aren't valuable because of their expenses.

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u/Undead-Guardian May 31 '23

This will be the end of reddit. It’s been a fun and memorable time with all of you.

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u/Vestalmin May 31 '23

I will legit stop using Reddit before I use their app.

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u/BitingChaos May 31 '23

I'm surprised it is only $166 for Imgur.

The bandwidth costs for them must be crazy.

The only reason Reddit would go from $0 straight up to $12,000 is simply to get rid of all 3rd-party clients. That's all.

If you told them that you could afford $12,000, then they'd raise it to $120,000.

The point is that they don't want you to pay. They only want 3rd-party apps gone.

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u/CalebImSoMetal May 31 '23

Please keep us updated on all of your projects.

If reddit apollo isnt a thing anymore, im probably not going to use reddit except in browser.

Youve been the best developer ive ever been proud to support. Id gladly pay for any of the other projects or products that you have a hand in.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '23

Going public always ruins companies. Full stop.

Fuck you, Reddit.

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u/Super-Garden May 31 '23

I left Twitter when Tweetbot was killed. I will leave Reddit if Apollo is killed.

I pay/paid for subscriptions to both, they are what made using these websites on mobile enjoyable instead of having to suffer through using the official apps.

I am sorry that this is happening to you Christian, it's deeply unfair that Reddit have pulled the rug on you and your users. I hope they reconsider as their pricing is far from being "based in reality".

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u/Merari01 May 31 '23
  1. Reddit tells us it wants to be reasonable and accommodating and that it doesn't intend to fuck us over.

  2. Reddit fucks us over.

Rinse.

Repeat.

IPO

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u/waltduncan May 31 '23

u/iamthatis I hope it does not come to this, but…

If you did something like a one-time donation that allowed me to strip my entire saved history, organized by the categories I’ve built in here, and my own comment history—to like a PDF with clickable links or something else accessible—I’d pay a pretty good amount for that swan-song feature. I suspect scripts like that are out there, but I’d happily buy the feature from you.

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u/broseph23 May 31 '23

This is a disgusting tactic by Reddit. I literally only use Apollo for Reddit. Without Apollo I don’t use Reddit. I know so many people that do the same. The native app is garbage. The website looks like it’s from 2002. Christian I wish you the best of luck.

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u/TheRedBadger May 31 '23

So sorry to hear this, Christian. Two quick thoughts here which I'm sure are being shared by many users of Apollo:

  • I will NOT use Reddit without Apollo. This is a technical stance in that there is no other mobile solution that even comes close to the Apollo experience. This also a principled stance because Reddit is clearly embracing the enshittification of their product. It's the same as Twitter, and at least Twitter isn't even trying to put a good spin on their efforts. I will vote with my feet and refuse to reward social networks that attempt this.
  • I will gladly pay double the subscription price to cover my usage costs. I hope others who are financially able will feel similarly.
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u/TheOrbOfAgamotto May 31 '23

Day 1 user here with beta access and have paid for lifetime license. This is really hard to chew given that it’s the community that generates value for Reddit.

This is an Apollo killing move. No third-party app can survive under such pricing.

Seriously, hit me up if you want to build a Mastodon for Reddit.

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